Interview with Robert Lopez
We spoke with award-winning songwriter and double EGOT Robert Lopez for Heyblabber podcast. Below is the transcript of that interview.
Michael: All right. So, today I have the immense privilege of speaking with Robert Lopez, who co-created the musicals Avenue Q and The Book of Mormon, and who has written, with his wife, Kristen Anderson-Lopez, songs for Frozen, Frozen II, Coco, WandaVision, the 2011 Winnie the Pooh movie, the recent Hulu show Up Here. He was also the composer for several episodes of Wonder Pets! That's several episodes, right? Not the entire series?
Robert Lopez: Oh yeah, just several. [chuckles]
Michael: A number of songs for the musical episode of Scrubs, even one song for an episode of The Simpsons, it looks like. And that, of course, is just some of it. Listeners, you might be wondering what any of this has to do with Jar Jar Binks. Well, we're definitely going to get to that real soon. But first, thanks for being here with me today, Bobby.
Robert Lopez: Thanks, Mike. It's a pleasure. It's a great pleasure! Thank you.
Michael: So, I want to get to your connection to Jar Jar Binks or possibly Jar Jar Binks' Cousin, but could you first talk a little bit about your relationship to Star Wars in general? I take it you're a fan. I think you're in that first generation, right?
Robert Lopez: That's right. I'm a G1, OG Star Wars original trilogy fan. And yeah, I was born in '75 so my parents took me to the movie even though I was, by all logic, too young for it. And I think it became, like, the way to... It was sort of my babysitter. They would get a relative to take me to Star Wars and I'm told I saw it 10 times in the original release. Anyway, I can't remember a moment when I didn't know Star Wars, I was a huge fan. I had all the records you could get. You know, there was no VHS back then but, like, I knew the lines from the storybook record.
I got re-excited about it in my teens just discovering the music as I was like becoming a young composer and songwriter and, you know, I've had a huge, huge fandom for John Williams ever since. And, you know, right around the time that Phantom Menace was coming out, I just couldn't... I remember thinking it was the thing I was the most excited for in my entire life. Like, I had all this stuff happening; I was starting life as a songwriter and like getting, getting a few nibbles here and there, and working on lots of stuff. But the only thing that would really get my heart racing was thinking about, “What is The Phantom Menace gonna be?”
Michael: Oh, wow. That's cool. Yeah, so I was born in ‘79 so I'm a little younger than you. My first exposure to Star Wars was actually the Ewok movies. Did you ever see those? The Ewok Adventure or The Battle for Endor. So, you're original trilogy, I'm Ewok movies. That's kind of my intro.
Robert Lopez: I can see the appeal.
Michael: But that was the thing that brought me into it, and I always loved those Ewoks.
Robert Lopez: Yeah, that was the little blonde kid with curly hair, right?
Michael: Yeap. Cindel was the name.
Robert Lopez: Cindel.
Michael: Yeah. And it's interesting because the first movie, they spend the whole time, they're trying to... It's her and her brother, Mace, so that's the first time we hear the name Mace in the Star Wars universe. I know that that was like a name that George Lucas had even in his, maybe his first draft. I think he had, like, Mace Windu in there, or maybe it was just Mace. But then, so he uses it in The Ewok Adventure. But anyway, so then those two go, they crash on Endor, and then a big monster kidnaps them. They have this whole big adventure where they go.
Robert Lopez: There's a witch, right? There's a witch. I saw it.
Michael: So, there's a witch in the second one. The first one is there's this big monster and he's called a Gorax and he comes in and he comes lumbering into the first time you see him. He comes lumbering into the scene. I remember I was so scared I had to, like, run up on the steps because he's, like, a big, scary monster.
Robert Lopez: Yeah, that was kind of in the same family of shows as Land of the Lost, right? It was like people in a forest and, kind of, rubbery-looking people in suits, kind of menacing them.
Michael: Yes. So, the second one had the witch, and it had the like the scary one, the scary people in the masks who kind of looked like maybe kind of some of the people on Jabba's sail barge.
Robert Lopez: Oh, yeah.
Michael: So, the first one, they go on this big adventure, and they have to save their parents because they're captured by the Gorax. And then the second movie starts with like everybody in her family getting killed, except for Cindel. And then it's like, oh, you spent this whole time on this adventure saving the family, and then not only did they die, but the brother dies too. I was like, “I don't like that. I don't like that so much.”
Robert Lopez: So, it's like Alien 3 level...
Michael: Yeah, carnage. Almost everybody's gone. And Wilford Brimley was in that one too. So, that was interesting.
Robert Lopez: He was?
Michael: Yeah. So maybe you've got to find these someday.
Robert Lopez: Yeah. I guess I think they're at Disney+ now.
Michael: I think they are actually. But anyway, I was also very excited when The Phantom Menace came out. I was still in college, and I remember when that first trailer came out, it was just so exciting. Like you see the Gungans come, and you don't know what any of this is, but it was a... Yeah. It was a big thing.
Robert Lopez: I remember there was like a... I misinterpreted what the Neimoidians were because you only saw them for half a second in that teaser trailer online, right? And I think she says... Natalie Portman's talking to them over the hologram, and I thought they were like... I thought those headpieces were, like, big ears and that the mouth was a big nose, and that they were kinda like Pound Puppy aliens. They looked a little like dogs to me.
Michael: Oh really?
Robert Lopez: I thought the mouth was the nose and the headdress for the long, floppy ears.
Michael: When you saw the prequel trilogy, were you satisfied? Were you...?
Robert Lopez: You know, I was an apologist. You know, I really denied that they, that there were any flaws about them at first. And then the tide of opinion was against me, and I had to sort of admit that there were moments where I felt like, you know, they're not really acting like people up there. But I loved the lore of it, I loved the, you know, the Darth Maul, the sabers, the hinting at the weird parentage for Anakin. You know, I was really reading into it, you know, that whole idea that maybe he was created by Sith. And it's funny, when The Acolyte just came out, that's what I got excited about for, that movie, that show. Like it seemed to be possibly casting some illumination on these questions that were brought up over, you know, 20, what, 25 years ago.
Michael: So, are you all caught up on that?
Robert Lopez: Yeah!
Michael: I know the last one just came out this week. So, I just watched it last night as well and I think I'm pretty happy with it. I know there's a lot of complaints online, but I cannot, I don't really, I don't really get it.
Robert Lopez: It's way over. It's just because we're so polarized as a society, it's falling into that. I do think that there's something religious about Star Wars and there's something religious about Star Wars fans. It crosses that line from literature into something that really changes the world and changes people's lives and creates a sense of devotion and, you know, discipleship. And I think that's why people get (especially these days) so defensive, so combative about it. One day a real war will be fought over Star Wars.
Michael: You think so?
Robert Lopez: [chuckles] Maybe.
Michael: Very possibly. Yeah. I liked seeing the Jedi in that time period. And I think it, I think it fits in pretty well with, like, the stuff we see later on in, in The Phantom Menace and that time period. I think it's supposed to be, what, like 150 years before, something like that, The Acolyte?
Robert Lopez: Yeah. It's crazy.
Michael: So yeah, I enjoyed it.
Robert Lopez: How could you not get kind of a tingle, that idea? It's this whole prequel thing. If you're really into the thing that the prequel is of, you're gonna wanna watch that prequel.
Michael: Yeah. So, I generally enjoy them too. I think, you know, Star Wars, I love Star Wars so much and I think about it so much so it's hard when things go against, like, the things you imagined were going to happen or were true about it. But it's also like, you know, that's kind of my problem. Just because it doesn't fit into, you know, I thought the Jedi were this and then they turned out to be this, and I'm talking more like Phantom Menace stuff. Like, I never expected them to have the structure that they had, that they would be, like, so organized and on Coruscant. I kind of figured they would be, like, just out there, masters would be on their own worlds doing their own things and that wouldn't be so centralized.
Robert Lopez: Yeah, they're so humble. They're so disciplined that it got a little bit tough to take, I thought. I agree with you. I wanted a little more swashbuckle.
Michael: Yeah. And I think that's part of the movies too. Like, you know, by that point, they're a little arrogant and they're a little corrupt and they don't want to see the things that are happening too. There's like kind of a more of a bureaucracy and maybe they've strayed a little bit from what they originally were.
Robert Lopez: I was, you know, a history buff. I didn't mind that there was some, you know, politics in the movie. I was kind of curious about it, but everyone criticized it from that point of like, “Who cares about space taxes and tariffs and blockades? What is this nonsense? Where's the bad guy?”
Michael: Right. I don't mind that either. And also, if you really look at it, it takes up, like, a couple minutes of the movie. It's not like people are like, “Oh, it's all about taxes. That's all you see.” And it's like, no, not really. I mean, that's just a little backstory.
Robert Lopez: It pays off in Revenge of the Sith. It's pretty, pretty exciting to watch Palpatine rise. That's just well done.
Michael: So, all right. So, let me get to your connection to Jar Jar Binks or possibly Jar Jar Binks' Cousin. So, let's get into why you're on this Jar Jar Binks-themed podcast. As of right now, July 18th, 2024, if you go to your Wikipedia page, you search for “Jar Jar,” you're not going to find anything on it. If you go to Wookieepedia, you don't even have a Wookieepedia page yet! We'll talk about that later. But why are you on the show today? What is your connection to Jar Jar Binks?
Robert Lopez: [chuckles] Okay. All right. In this lead-up to The Phantom Menace, I was a fledgling songwriter in New York City, I lived with my parents, and I had a partner who I met in this musical theater workshop named Jeff Marx, who we would go on to write Avenue Q together and end those Scrubs songs and a bunch of other things, you know, on our on our way up to becoming professionals. You know, we were really close, and Jeff was dating this other awesome guy named Gordon Grody, who was a jingle singer from, from the old days, from the ‘70s. He sang, [sings] “Be all that you can be.”
Michael: I know that one.
Robert Lopez: He sang a lot of stuff you know from your childhood if you're a Gen X. 3-2-1 Contact, Jem, “Truly outrageous,” lots of great stuff. This guy, he just knew everybody. And one of the people he knew was this guy named Meco, who had back in the day created the disco Star Wars record that was a big, big number one hit. I guess it was called Other Galactic Funk.
Michael: Yeap.
Robert Lopez: And it had that famous disco Main Title theme and Cantina theme from Star Wars, which I knew. My parents had that record, I listened to it all the time as a kid, I thought this guy was pretty amazing. And he came to Gordon and asked him, he said, “Okay, so here's the situation. I'm making another record with the release of the new movie, surprise! I'm doing a couple of serious songs, a couple of fun, you know, songs based on...” there's that “Duel of the Fates” thing and doing that he made a “Duel of the Fates” track disco. “But I want to do a fun novelty song like a rap, and I've got the beat. It's kind of like an Isley Brothers jam. It's kind of like ‘It's your thing.' And what I need are some lyrics, some Gungan lyrics, because this is gonna be about Jar Jar. Jar Jar is going to be the biggest thing. He's going to be the big character. But I don't want to get sued. We can't get sued. So, here's the here's the deal. I want it to be Jar Jar is walking into a club, right? So, he's going to he's going to get down and boogie. And everyone says, “Hey, Jar Jar! It's you! Oh my god.” And then he's like, “No, no, it's not me. Don't you see? I'm Jar Jar's cousin. Yeah, you're mistaking me for Jar Jar... Yeah, I'm Jar Jar's cousin.” [chuckles]
So, I just thought it was hilarious that we're writing this song from the point of view of not getting sued. Like, “You see, Your Honor, in the first verse, clearly says, ‘Mesa no Jar Jar.'”
Michael: Right. But isn't the fact that you're saying “Jar Jar” kind of... Even just using the words “Jar Jar” isn't that a problem?
Robert Lopez: The area of copyright law is gray in certain areas. I think parody is pretty broad and we're clearly doing a parody. I don't think we probably needed to say that he was Jar Jar's cousin, but I guess Meco had been sued before. [chuckles] I don't know that for sure. But he seemed pretty he seemed a little bit like “We're not messing around.”
And so, that's where we started, you know, between me and Jeff and Gordy, I was the Star Wars fan! I was the one who was excited for the upcoming movie, and I knew about this character already, even though the movie wasn't out yet, and I had already bought the screenplay. So, I was kind of... It fell to me to do a lot of the Star Wars-specific aspects of it. And then I already kind of knew the patois from seeing the commercials and stuff. So, I got to do the rap when we finally recorded it. It was the first time I'd ever been asked to sing anything professionally [chuckles] and I did my best. But yeah, I can't really speak for the quality of the results. That's not for me to say.
Michael: I think it's great. Yeah, so okay, that was going to be my question. I was like, if it was before the movie came out, how did you know, like, all the words? But if you saw... You said you had the screenplay, you said the trailer was out so you, kind of...
Robert Lopez: You know, I think by the time I did record it... it was one of those jobs that it was sort of a “Hurry up and wait,” like they were very they really wanted to beat the movie out. So, we started to write it. And then by the time we recorded it, I think the film had come out and I'd seen it because I remember on the little ride out after all the words we wrote, they just said “Keep talking. Just say some Jar Jar-y things, just say whatever.” And so, I said things like, “Well, that smells stinkowiff.” And “Maxi big, da force,” like that kind of that kind of stuff, and I think I couldn't have known that from the trailer, I must have seen the movie already.
Michael: Yeah, so I actually went quite a few years back, like, when I was trying to find all I could about the song because there really isn't that much about it on the internet.
Robert Lopez: I think it kept getting taken down. I remember.
Michael: And so, I actually went, and I tried to do the lyrics, and the last thing it says is “Mesa going home now. Mesa going to Brooklyn.” I was like, I assume that's some sort of adlib.
Robert Lopez: Yeah, exactly. That was that was... [chuckles] That was in that ride-out moment of like, “Just say whatever, dude.” And I was, I guess I was thinking about going home to Brooklyn.
Michael: So yeah, that's pretty...
Robert Lopez: I did “Tis a longo songo.”
Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's something like that in there, yeah. So, you're the voice of Jar Jar. And how much of how much of that... Would you say, like, you wrote most of that rap? Or is it a collaboration?
Robert Lopez: It was a collaboration between me and Jeff. Yeah, I don't remember exactly who wrote what, but we always wrote everything in the same room. The only difference being that I don't think Jeff knew from Star Wars. So, I would imagine I came up with Naboo. “Jar Jar Binks, it's so good to see you. Jar Jar Binks, when did you get in from Naboo?” [chuckles]
Michael: It's good.
Robert Lopez: I'm proud of that one actually, I think it's pretty good. We had some excellent jingle singers on the backup too. They weren't famous, but they had been on everything like my Gordy's friends. There was one woman named Diva Gray who could just sing anything so good. It was a great group, and it was my first time kind of being in the studio.
Michael: Was this... Were you working on... I think I was looking up the time frames. Were you working on, like, would you have been working on Avenue Q at that time?
Robert Lopez: Yes, I think so because it was the summer of ‘99 that we did it. And yeah, I think we recorded it in the summer of like May '99, something like that. And we were working on Avenue Q by August. I don't remember exactly when everything came down, but it was around that same time.
Michael: So, two really great things you were working on at that time.
Robert Lopez: [laughs] Well, Avenue Q turned out rather well. I don't know about the Jar Jar song. It's no one's favorite song that I know.
Michael: You're talking to someone whose favorite song it is. [Bobby laughs] Certainly up there.
Robert Lopez: All right!
Michael: I enjoy it. It's catchy. There really aren't that many songs about Jar Jar Binks, you may be surprised to know.
Robert Lopez: No, there really aren't.
Michael: So, this is... I have an International Talk like Jar Jar Binks Day playlist. And this is, like, one of the only things on there.
Robert Lopez: [laughs] Shortlist.
Michael: It's like the music the music from the movies, Augie's Municipal Band at the end of The Phantom Menace, that one's in there.
Robert Lopez: Aww, I love that one! “Peace!”
Michael: Yeah, in between Episodes I and II, I remember I saw some internet rumor that Episode II was gonna start on Boss Nass, and he was going to say “War!” Like, that was going to be the first words of Episode II. Like ends on “Peace” at the end of Episode I. That didn't happened.
Robert Lopez: No, it did not.
Michael: But it's like, you know, could be a good contrast.
Robert Lopez: I guess they put it in the front of Sith.
Michael: Yeah, that's true.
Robert Lopez: War!
Michael: Yep. Exactly. All right.
Robert Lopez: Well, you know, just to go off the Augie's Municipal Band, how they're, you know, there's a subtle trace of the Emperor's theme in that. In our song, Meco hid a little bit of the start of John Williams in the “It's Your Thing” background. So, you know, it's your thing is kind of like [plays piano] ... Something like that. So, in ours, it goes. [plays again]
Michael: I hear it! I would not have heard that if you hadn't pointed it out though. I'm not as musically inclined.
Robert Lopez: It's all about the levels. It's all about the layers.
Michael: You mentioned Augie's Municipal Band. I did hear that where there's like the little Palpatine's theme in there, and I know I first heard about that from David W. Collins, one of his shows, he did that. Did you know that before his show or...?
Robert Lopez: No. I totally... I was just having dinner with David.
Michael: Oh, really?
Robert Lopez: A few weeks ago, and I told him I had no idea about the Augie's thing until I heard it on the Star Wars: Oxygen show.
Michael: I really loved his analysis. I remember he said that he had some sort of tracking spreadsheet of, like, where all the themes fit in, how many times they played and I was like, “I really want a copy of that.” I think I even sent email and I think it was like, “No, I'm not I'm not sharing that at this point.”
Robert Lopez: I tell him he should publish it. He should have... He should publish the, you know, the statistics of Star Wars music.
Michael: Yeah, that would be great. It seems like he's busy with like... he's at Skywalker Sound, right?
Robert Lopez: He's been doing all the voices and doing all the sound, yeah.
Michael: Yeah, so that's great. So, I guess I should ask you: What are your feelings on Jar Jar? Maybe I should ask: What were your feelings originally? Have they changed at all over the years? Or is it pretty much... Or do you not have that much of an opinion?
Robert Lopez: Well, I definitely feel bad for that performer. I feel bad a little for the character and all of the optimism that went into creating him because I see the spirit in which it was meant and I think, I mean, judging from the reaction to a lot of this, you know, prequel-based stuff from Disney Star Wars, that the prequels now kind of loom large in the next generation, the Millennials and younger. They all love it, and they liked Jar Jar as kids, they really appreciated him too. So, you know, I think it's great. The Star Wars you get is the Star Wars you get. And I wonder, you know, if kids who are older than us are, you know, grown-ups when Star Wars came out, I remember them not particularly caring for Star Wars either, thinking it was kind of ridiculous and, you know, just nonsense, “What's the big deal?” So, you know, there's a chance that it is all just silly and, you know, why put yourself above that? Since you were a kid yourself and, you know, you fell in love with Chewbacca or whatever. Now these kids have Jar Jar.
Michael: That's true. I feel like in the last couple years, there definitely seems to be more of a reexamining of Jar Jar. Yeah, like, that generation, probably a lot of them do love him. And it seems like Ahmed Best, he's the actor behind Jar Jar, it seems like he's been getting a lot more love from the fandom and it was really cool to see him... Did you see him in The Mandalorian? He was the Jedi, right? So, and he had, like, that game show a couple of years ago, you know, as that same character. Were you aware of that one?
Robert Lopez: No, I didn't know about the game show.
Michael: Yeah, it was, like, Jedi Council Challenge or something like that. I think it was primarily on YouTube. It came out, like, right during the pandemic. So, I don't know how many people actually caught it. I'm glad that hopefully people are at least being a little nicer to him because I don't get the hate.
Robert Lopez: Although, trying to remember how I felt about Jar Jar back then. I think I did go through a period where I just disassociated myself from him because I remember Kristen, my then-girlfriend, now-wife, and songwriting partner, for Christmas that year, and it was our first Christmas as a couple, she bought me [laughs] a Jar Jar toy that was Cantina Dancing Jar Jar. Do you know this toy? Have you ever seen it?
Michael: I don't know if I've seen it...
Robert Lopez: It was like a base and a stand and Jar Jar was kind of this 14-inch-high figure that was loosely attached to the stand, and he could sort of move around and when you press the button, it played the Cantina and he started to dance to the Cantina song.
Michael: Oh, wow.
Robert Lopez: And then [laughs] it was a drum break, you know, in one of the, one of those jazzy tunes like [sings] “Do-ga-do-ga-do-ga-do, Ga-do-ga-do-ga-do-ga-do,” and he just totally spazzed out. It was like, it was going into some kind of seizure. It was just about the funniest thing I ever saw. And I remember having this feeling of like, “Oh god, am I the Jar Jar guy now? Am I going to get these presents every Christmas? I really hope that that doesn't happen.”
Michael: And it didn't. Or did it?
Robert Lopez: No, it didn't. It didn't.
Michael: Okay. And this would have been after the Cousin Jar Jar.
Robert Lopez: Yeah, it was after Cousin Jar Jar came out.
Michael: Was she fully aware of all that? Did she hear versions of that?
Robert Lopez: Yes. Oh, yeah! We were dating during that time. She related to me and one of the cool things I thought when we first started dating was she had had this job at the New York City Toy Fair in 1998 or ‘97, where she was the very special... what's the word? Just, sort of like, introducing people to interactive Yoda, which was kind of like a Furby based on Yoda, and she had all these bullet points memorized of like, “Interactive Yoda has 37 commands.” And I just thought it was the cutest thing ever. It was like the Episode I, it was all about Episode I, they didn't even know the title The Phantom Menace. So, she was like this, the Star Wars girl toy demonstrator.
Michael: Oh, that's cool. So yeah, I went back, I listened to your first interview with David W. Collins on Star Wars: Oxygen, and you said occasionally you'll bring up Cousin Jar Jar in interviews. But then you'll have to go back and like delete it from the internet. And I just want to make sure you're okay with this whole discussion here. Like... [chuckles] don't want to...
Robert Lopez: Oh no. I'm secretly, you know, I think you can tell, Phantom Menace is a guilty pleasure for me, and this song, I'm secretly proud of it. But it is pretty ridiculous when you - It's, like, the dumbest thing I've ever done. However, it's not the worst Star Wars song I ever wrote.
Michael: Oh, really?
Robert Lopez: My friend from college who's brilliant, his name is Ian Doescher, he created Shakespeare's Star Wars, you ever heard of it?
Michael: Okay, I have heard of it. Yeah, I don't think I've seen it, but I've heard of it.
Robert Lopez: Next time you're in any bookstore.
Michael: Oh, it's a book!
Robert Lopez: Yeah.
Michael: I think I was thinking of, oh, I was thinking of, like, there was some like 30-minute Star Wars, which I think is, like, something you can go see. But yeah, okay, I've heard of it. Sorry, go ahead.
Robert Lopez: No, no, no, no, it's fine. And it's really, really... I mean, this guy put his Yale English degree to maximum use with it, because he created these line-for-line adaptations in Elizabethan verse, sometimes rhyming. It's just perfect Shakespeare, you know, pastiche. And the first one's called, geez, I forget the name, but the second one is Empire Striketh Back, and the third is The Jedi Doth Return. There's really wonderful passages in there, and they're just hilarious. You open to any page, it's great.
But he asked me to write a song for the audiobook. You know, there's songs in Shakespeare, so he had done one for the sail barge, Jabba's sail barge scene, where I think it was the, you know, the palace, the first scene in the palace. And he wrote something where, you know, now you have Jabba's Baroque recital, that little piece of music they're playing when they, when you first walk in, he wrote a lyric called, “'Tis well to be a gangster,” which was the, like, you know, “Damn it feels good to be a gangster” song.
Michael: Yeah, from Office Space.
Robert Lopez: Yeah, gangster. And so, you know, it was yet another Star Wars rap that I had to score, and I also tried to put in the idea of Renaissance music. [laughs] Those three things, Renaissance music, gangster rap, and Star Wars, I just couldn't quite tonally unite them.
Michael: So, wait. Where is this? Is this available?
Robert Lopez: I don't know. I know it was on an audiobook. It was on a, you know, multi-disc audiobook you could buy in 2011 or something.
Michael: I'm going to have to try and find that. I was not aware of that.
Robert Lopez: [laughs] It's really bad and it got rewritten. I had to rewrite it to something that I didn't like as much as what I first wrote and then it got recorded without me being there, and the whole thing... I would sooner never listen to it. But just to be frank, that like, I love Star Wars so much, I'm just not sure it's the muse for me. But I desperately want to be a part of it while knowing that songs and Star Wars don't necessarily go together.
Michael: So, I mean, I guess that kind of gets to something I was going to ask you in a bit, but I guess we can go to it now. If you were ever asked by Lucasfilm, and I have no idea, it would kind of be crazy for me to imagine that you haven't been approached by Lucasfilm, but I'm not going to speculate. If you were approached by Lucasfilm, would you be willing to work on a Star Wars project? Presumably something musical.
Robert Lopez: Oh yeah. I would die to do a project with Lucasfilm. I've never been approached by them, I can understand why because, you know, Star Wars and musicals are not thought of in the same circles really. And I hate to think what the fan reaction would be if they heard that Star Wars was doing a musical. But on the other hand, I'm very drawn to the idea, and I keep trying to think of what might work. I actually have an idea that I might go pitch one of these days that I'm kind of excited about. I think I may have figured out how you could do songs in Star Wars, yet I want to tread carefully.
Michael: Okay. So, you're going to keep that one close held.
Robert Lopez: I'm going to keep that one close to the vest for now. Maybe one day you'll be like, “Oh my God, now what are they doing?” And it'll be me. [laughs]
Michael: See, I don't necessarily feel that way. I mean, they're expanding so much. They have so many shows now, like, you could have an episode of The Mandalorian, Season 4, the Mandalorian gets hit in the head with a rock and then all of a sudden everybody around him starts singing. Grogu pops out of his little stroller or whatever. And he has, like, a deep voice and was like, “Oh, Baby Yoda can sing.”
Robert Lopez: That's a good one too. There we go.
Michael: Sorry, if I just stole your idea at all.
Robert Lopez: [laughs] That's not it.
Michael: But I mean, you could do...
Robert Lopez: I was so excited when Disney bought Star Wars because that was right at the moment when Kristen and I were starting to do very well with Disney. Frozen and just come out and I thought, “Oh boy, now they'll come to me for, you know, if they ever need a Cantina song or anything.” And I think I dropped a lot of hints to people who probably didn't weren't the right people to take them. And then I heard that Lin-Manuel and JJ Abrams are writing the song for the Cantina for The Force Awakens and I was so jealous. I've never been as jealous in my life. I was like, “Oh my God.” But one of these days I'll do something. One of these days I'll do something with Lucasfilm. Oh! I had the chance to write one of those Galaxy's Edge songs for that hotel, the Space Hotel in Florida but we didn't end up doing that.
Michael: Oh, okay. I was going to say, which one? I have the first soundtrack. And there's actually a Gungan drinking song on that soundtrack and it's really interesting.
Robert Lopez: What's it called?
Michael: Oh, it's called “Una Duey Dee,” I believe, which is “One, two, three” in Gungan. So, for a while I was like I want to know, A) what the lyrics are and B) what the lyrics mean. And I was like, I was trying to reach out. I found a couple people who are like the head of Disney Music or something, I tried emailing them but I never heard back. But that's one of the other songs on my, on my Jar Jar playlist. So, I can...
Robert Lopez: Wow. Oh, I really want to check that out. It's called “Una Duey Dee”?
Michael: “Una Duey Dee,” it's on the first compilation.
Robert Lopez: [laughs] That's so great.
Michael: You should definitely check it out. You know, if you can figure out all the lyrics, just let me know.
Robert Lopez: I thought they did a really good job, from what I have heard, on that. And the Cantina songs in Oga's Cantina are pretty good. Yeah, I think they know what they're doing now in terms of, you know, getting music into Star Wars. Still, I think it would be fun to do a melodic break-into-song kind of Star Wars thing one day.
There was a... I know like every case of these, you know, something vaguely happening between Star Wars and songs. My old teacher, Maury Yeston, who wrote Titanic and Nine, he's the songwriter of those great Tony-winning musicals, he was approached in the ‘80s by Hal Prince, the famous Broadway director and producer, to do a Star Wars musical. He said that George Lucas had called him and really wanted to get a Star Wars musical going and Hal reached out to Maury, my professor, and Maury wrote a bunch of songs on spec for it and then never heard back about it.
Michael: Oh, no.
Robert Lopez: It just kind of died in the offing, But one of the songs that he wrote, it was like the binary sunset, Luke's “I Want” song moment, it went through various forms after, you know, when it became a trunk song, he used it for another project which also didn't happen. And then he ended up, it ended up finally becoming the main theme of Titanic, his adaptation of Titanic.
Michael: Oh, really?
Robert Lopez: Yeah, that's Luke's Binary Suns moment.
Michael: Wow. I never would have known there was a connection there between Star Wars and Titanic.
Robert Lopez: No, you couldn't 'a, you couldn't ‘a. But Maury also wrote songs for Meco's Christmas album, “What Can You Get a Wookiee for Christmas When He Already Owns a Comb?”
Michael: Okay. Is that the one that Bon Jovi is on?
Robert Lopez: Yes. Bon Jovi sings on some of them because his dad was the arranger for Meco.
Michael: Wow. That's cool.
Robert Lopez: Bon Jovi sped up, like, beyond chipmunk.
Michael: Okay. You said you'd be worried about the fan reaction. I'd say, who cares? It would be fun! It would be fun. I know, like, when there's that musical at the end of Hawkeye where they do like the Avengers musical, have you seen that?
Robert Lopez: Oh, yeah. They asked us to do it and then we never heard back. [laughs]
Michael: Oh, really? Oh, I'm sorry.
Robert Lopez: It's another one of those things.
Michael: Sorry.
Robert Lopez: Like, “Oh, whatever happened to the Hawkeye thing? Oh, I guess Marc Shaiman is doing it. Okay.”
Michael: But I thought that was great. I know there was fan reaction, like people are so mad about that. I was like, that's like... I am glad to have watched 28 Marvel movies just to see that. That was so funny.
Robert Lopez: It actually, they put it up, I think, in the Anaheim Theater in California Adventure. They did it there in, you know, what's the name of that theater? The Hyperion Theater in California. It was actually a show you could go see.
Michael: Oh, wow.
Robert Lopez: We have a show coming out, speaking of this territory of Marvel stuff, Kristen and I have songs in the new Halloween...
Michael: Oh, really?
Robert Lopez: “Agatha All Along.” We wrote that song, “Agatha All Along.”
Michael: Oh, I know.
Robert Lopez: This is like a show that has the same title about Agatha and it's gonna be awesome. It's really, it's incredible. It has Patty LuPone, and we just had a blast, had a blast writing this thing.
Michael: I can't wait. So, you said multiple songs?
Robert Lopez: Well, yeah. I guess it's a little more complicated than that but it's, yeah, it's like lots of different versions.
Michael: Oh, okay. I wanted to get that too because I really loved those intros to WandaVision and my kids really loved them too. Like, I think that was probably their favorite part of that. I have a family playlist of all the songs that are kind of like from shows or things we watch that are kind of relevant. So, there's like “Yo Gabba Gabba!” on there but there's also all of your WandaVision songs are on there and they really liked that. They liked the “Agatha All Along” one a lot. My wife was just talking the other day... What's the one that's the, like, ‘80s one?
Robert Lopez: “Making it up as we go along.”
Michael: Yes. And she was like, just out of nowhere was like, “This song is so perfect. They got it so right.” And I was like, “You know, this is who I'm going to talk to in a couple of weeks? I'll let him know.”
Robert Lopez: Oh yeah, and that's me and Kristen singing on that song. We got to sing all the songs from WandaVision. Man, that was the most fun job, getting to write sitcom. Can you imagine writing eight different sitcom intros for the same show and trying to hide little musical hints between them all? Like that was just... And then getting to sing it, like forget it. It was so much fun.
Michael: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Those are great. I really liked that show and I really liked the... I thought that was really clever.
Robert Lopez: The people that worked on that show were really, really good. And we just worked with Jac Schaeffer again on Agatha and boy, does her mind work on many different levels at once. She's incredible.
Michael: All right. So, I know we're getting close here on time. I don't want to keep you too much longer. I'm sure I could probably ask you a lot of other things. Let me get to... You just mentioned Agatha All Along, is there anything else you're working on that you can mention or plug? I know it was announced Frozen III and maybe Frozen IV? I don't know if that's anything you can talk about.
Robert Lopez: You know, we certainly hope to be involved with those. Those are going to be great, I'm sure. We just haven't really gotten down to it and it's definitely not something that's happening yet.
Michael: Okay. I didn't know how far along they were. So, it's still a ways out.
Robert Lopez: As far as far as I could tell, yeah, it seems like early. And yeah, we're working on another project at Disney that we can't talk about, animation, and that's been going great. We've been working with a lot of great people there and we have a couple of Broadway things starting up. You know, it's been too long since we did anything on Broadway and we're really excited to be, to be getting back to Broadway because we never intended this much time to go by.
Michael: In the episode of Dead Eyes, you were on, you mentioned how you got to meet Tom Hanks and your wife, Kristen got to meet John Williams, like, that same night. So, I take it you hadn't met John Williams at that point. Have you met him yet?
Robert Lopez: I had met him. I've shaken his hand before. I always get, I'm like a blubbery mess when I meet most, you know, heroes and stuff. And this was no exception. It was just one of those, you know, I said who I was, I thanked him, and he was very much like, “Okay. Good. Bye!” [both laugh] But man, do I owe him so much, so much joy, so much learning, so much music, just so much. And I'm sure he gets that reaction from so many people that he can't respond to each one in a, you know, in a curious way. Like, it's just obvious at this point that the guy's the man.
Michael: I'm sure that you have had just about as much impact and influence on people.
Robert Lopez: Oh, I doubt– No, not as much as him, but I definitely, that's what I'm striving for. That's what we're trying to do.
Michael: One other thing. In one of your interviews on The Soundtrack Show, your wife zinged you and was like, “I have friends, Bobby has podcasts.” [Bobby laughs] Do you listen to a lot of podcasts or is it you just listen to a couple of podcasts a lot?
Robert Lopez: Yeah, I listen to... I kind of get obsessed with one or two or three and then sometimes forget about them and substitute others and all that stuff. But yeah, I love to have podcasts on when I'm, you know, doing chores or doing work that I don't have to listen for. And yeah, and sometimes just sitting around listening.
Michael: What's, like, your favorites? Anything right now?
Robert Lopez: I'm a big Max Fun guy. I love Judge John Hodgman.
Michael: I've heard you on there a couple times. I tried to get on that. I kept submitting disputes and I could never get on.
Robert Lopez: Did you ever submit a Jar Jar-related dispute?
Michael: I didn't submit a Jar Jar-related dispute, but the one thing that he did, he didn't have me on the show, but he had my case in that New York Times thing, that column, I think he still does it. And basically, the end of his judgment was that I had to wear a Jar Jar costume. So, it ended up being Jar Jar-related anyway.
Robert Lopez: I've got to find that. Oh my god.
Michael: But yeah, that was pretty funny. I've listened to his show. He had like an audiobook or something and he had excerpts from it and then it became the Judge John Hodgman... it was just like in my feed one day and I was like, “What's this?” So, I've been listening from the beginning, I find those it was really fun.
Robert Lopez: He's so funny. I love him.
Michael: All right. So, I know you've got to go. I really appreciate the time you spent.
Robert Lopez: Thank you so much for having me. I never get to talk about Star Wars, I never get to talk about you know who.
Michael: I think you should be leading with this more. Like, when you're in interviews, I know you are not only an EGOT, but the world's only double EGOT, right?
Robert Lopez: Yeah, that's right.
Michael: So that's... you got like three things. “I'm an EGOT, double EGOT, I wrote a Jar Jar Binks song.” These are the things you should be leading with at parties and interviews.
Robert Lopez: Jar Jar's Cousin.
Michael: Jar Jar's Cousin, sorry.
Robert Lopez: Jar Jar's Cousin. Mesa no Jar Jar.
Michael: All right. So, I'll let you go unless you have anything...
Robert Lopez: No, no. May the Force be with yousa.
Michael: Oh, can I expect you to participate on August 19th, ninth annual International Talk Like Jar Jar Binks Day? Will you be, you know, working it into your conversations?
Robert Lopez: I will. I will.
Michael: Playing Cousin Jar Jar.
Robert Lopez: It's going on the calendar.
Michael: All right. Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time. I'm sorry to the rest of the world for taking up an hour of your time to talk about Jar Jar.
Robert Lopez: I appreciate it, Mike. Thank you. Thank you. Can't wait to hear how this comes out.
Michael: All right. I will send it along. Thanks so much.
Robert Lopez: Awesome. Cheers. Bye.
Michael: Bye.
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Transcript by Aveline Malek.